This is a debate that occurred on Arren's new router. Arren wanted to take over primary router
adminship. I thought she'd agreed to be an alternate router. This conflict played out as follows:

[2007.02.16-19.56] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Right now, it seems that a corollary of your intention is to have someone put a lot of work into something which simply competes with you. I've made it clear that I do not want to compete with you.
[2007.02.16-19.57] Cratylus <intergossip> mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
[2007.02.16-19.57] Cratylus <intergossip> what would i gain from that?
[2007.02.16-19.57] Cratylus <intergossip> oh i ge tit
[2007.02.16-19.57] Cratylus <intergossip> you fail i laugh
[2007.02.16-19.58] Cratylus <intergossip> dunno how i would convince you that's not in my interest
[2007.02.16-19.59] Cratylus <intergossip> only thing i can do is point to my history of not being that kind of guy
[2007.02.16-19.59] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> What kind of guy have you been, exactly?
[2007.02.16-20.00] Cratylus <intergossip> definitely an excellent driver
[2007.02.16-20.00] <imud_gossip> Mouse@Broken Empire snickers.
[2007.02.16-20.00] Cratylus <intergossip> lookit, before i was router admin i was a regular ball breaking wise ass like everyone else on gjs
[2007.02.16-20.01] Cratylus <intergossip> i set up yatmim and it had a purpose and i protected it
[2007.02.16-20.01] Cratylus <intergossip> i dunno how that made me look like a bad guy
[2007.02.16-20.01] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Should have removed intergossip by default in your noob muds.
[2007.02.16-20.01] Cratylus <intergossip> but i guess it did
[2007.02.16-20.01] Cratylus <intergossip> throughout, whether on gjs or yatmim, i have not been intentionally malicious
[2007.02.16-20.02] Cratylus <intergossip> no doubt i crossed a boundary here or there, but intentional hurtfulness is not my thing
[2007.02.16-20.02] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> I don't think you're always aware of when you're being malicious.
[2007.02.16-20.02] Cratylus <intergossip> even when duuk asked for unix help
[2007.02.16-20.02] Cratylus <intergossip> all i did was provide specific helpful information
[2007.02.16-20.02] Cratylus <intergossip> so, what kind of guy?
[2007.02.16-20.02] Cratylus <intergossip> pretty nice guy
[2007.02.16-20.03] Cratylus <intergossip> but somehow being router admin has made me seem like an evil overfiend, and since i'm just me, i have no idea how to combat that
[2007.02.16-20.04] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> My serious best suggestion is to turn off igossip by default on DS (I can't actually work out how to turn it on), and abdicate. If you don't want to do that, I don't mind, and I will gladly leave you with status quo.
[2007.02.16-20.05] Cratylus <intergossip> how about this
[2007.02.16-20.05] Cratylus <intergossip> i block intergossip completely on yatmim
[2007.02.16-20.05] Cratylus <intergossip> all yatmim traffic has to come here
[2007.02.16-20.05] Cratylus <intergossip> all INTERGOSSIP
[2007.02.16-20.06] Cratylus <intergossip> all intergossip traffic has to come here
[2007.02.16-20.06] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Talk about over reaction.
[2007.02.16-20.06] Cratylus <intergossip> i'm not acting
[2007.02.16-20.06] Cratylus <intergossip> i'm asking
[2007.02.16-20.06] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> That's why we think you're an asshole.
[2007.02.16-20.06] Cratylus <intergossip> i'm suggesting
[2007.02.16-20.06] Cratylus <intergossip> this is a *sugestion* not a confrontation
[2007.02.16-20.06] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Because when we offer a solution that would make everyone happy, you threaten to take your toys and go home.
[2007.02.16-20.06] Cratylus <intergossip> some people are able to think in terms other than "fuck you"
[2007.02.16-20.06] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> I don't think that's the best way to achieve an objective. It's obstructive and malicious, and will do you far fewer favours than any other suggestion.
[2007.02.16-20.07] Cratylus <intergossip> mmm
[2007.02.16-20.07] Cratylus <intergossip> let's suppose there's something worng with me
[2007.02.16-20.08] Cratylus <intergossip> assume i have a mental defect
[2007.02.16-20.08] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Blocking igossip on yatmim would certainly have the effect you intend, but you'd piss off more people, and I don't want you to do that.
[2007.02.16-20.08] Cratylus <intergossip> and this defect prevents me from allowing hate-speech to happen on common channels on a router i run
[2007.02.16-20.08] Cratylus <intergossip> like, this defect makes me feel physically ill to imagine people associate me with that sort of thing
[2007.02.16-20.09] Tatianna@Anarres II <imud_gossip> hmm
[2007.02.16-20.09] Cratylus <intergossip> so that whether ds muds per se are connected to it is not so much the point
[2007.02.16-20.09] Cratylus <intergossip> but that it happens on my watch in my house, is
[2007.02.16-20.09] Cratylus <intergossip> again
[2007.02.16-20.09] Cratylus <intergossip> defect
[2007.02.16-20.09] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> That's not a defect, it's a fair reaction. It makes you perhaps distant from the norm, but it's not a defect. However, this distance from the norm might make you a bad politician or ambassador.
[2007.02.16-20.09] Cratylus <intergossip> this is a thought exercise
[2007.02.16-20.09] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> So make intergossip a "non public" channel
[2007.02.16-20.10] Cratylus <intergossip> that's what i'm proposing
[2007.02.16-20.10] Cratylus <intergossip> making ig on yatmim non public
[2007.02.16-20.10] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> All you need to do is remove the words "intergossip" from dead souls mudlib
[2007.02.16-20.10] Cratylus <intergossip> so that joe schmoe will come here instead
[2007.02.16-20.10] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Mouse, the question is, can one plan an orderly reorganisation without Cratylus pissing off any more people.
[2007.02.16-20.10] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> No, you're not understanding.
[2007.02.16-20.10] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Just remove intergossip from the DS lib.
[2007.02.16-20.10] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Not from the router.
[2007.02.16-20.10] Cratylus <intergossip> you have not been listening mouse
[2007.02.16-20.11] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> So your noobs won't ever know it exists.
[2007.02.16-20.11] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Mouse, I think we're currently not in the realm of that solution.
[2007.02.16-20.11] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Then a better solution would be for yatmim to cease function and pass everything to adsr
[2007.02.16-20.12] Cratylus <intergossip> i think an orderly migration can be done
[2007.02.16-20.12] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> the community isn't broken up and Crat doesn't have to be associated with anything he's unhappy about.
[2007.02.16-20.12] Cratylus <intergossip> so long as theres no big rush
[2007.02.16-20.12] Cratylus <intergossip> whether people are mad at me is kind of irrelevant to me
[2007.02.16-20.12] Cratylus <intergossip> at this point it's the default
[2007.02.16-20.12] Cratylus <intergossip> so it's not worth trying to avoid
[2007.02.16-20.13] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> You say that, but then you whine about what people will think about you due to IG
[2007.02.16-20.13] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> It matters to me, and it's also fixable. I'd like to achieve both.
[2007.02.16-20.13] Cratylus <intergossip> fine by me, either way
[2007.02.16-20.14] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Cratylus, it honestly sounds like the best solution to me. It removes you from the site of the problem. People have very short memories.
[2007.02.16-20.14] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> And it avoids fragmenting the network, something I am very keen to avoid.
[2007.02.16-20.15] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Also, and don't take this the wrong way...
[2007.02.16-20.15] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Arren is probably better at network socket code.
[2007.02.16-20.15] Cratylus <intergossip> heh
[2007.02.16-20.15] Cratylus <intergossip> ok
[2007.02.16-20.15] Cratylus <intergossip> so the idea then is
[2007.02.16-20.15] Cratylus <intergossip> intergossip moves to arrenrouter
[2007.02.16-20.15] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Arren I'm sure won't actually care about the DS/Dchat lines
[2007.02.16-20.16] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Um, no.
[2007.02.16-20.16] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> yatmim closes.
[2007.02.16-20.16] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> adsr handles everything.
[2007.02.16-20.16] Cratylus <intergossip> and ds by default goes on yatmim
[2007.02.16-20.16] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Including your precious dead souls
[2007.02.16-20.16] Cratylus <intergossip> mouse you're just not being helpful
[2007.02.16-20.16] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Which will help everyone, and you get the benefits of the better maintained router
[2007.02.16-20.16] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Mouse is just disagreeing with you. That's not the same as "unhelpful".
[2007.02.16-20.17] Cratylus <intergossip> heh
[2007.02.16-20.17] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> In Crat-world it is.
[2007.02.16-20.17] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Crat, listen.
[2007.02.16-20.17] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Arren is better at network code.
[2007.02.16-20.17] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> So you benefit.
[2007.02.16-20.17] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> You don't have to seem like an asshat anymore.
[2007.02.16-20.17] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> So you benefit
[2007.02.16-20.17] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Perhaps we can run this in reverse. What assertions or references from me would you accept in order to keep I3 non-fragmented?
[2007.02.16-20.17] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Dead Souls still gets its nice, quiet place to hang out
[2007.02.16-20.18] Tatianna@Anarres II <imud_gossip> and we cvan all get back the hatred filled crat we knew and loved from gks
[2007.02.16-20.18] Cratylus <intergossip> i understand what you are talking about. what i am telling you is that in my entire experience on line, relying on anyone else for anything is stupid
[2007.02.16-20.18] Cratylus <intergossip> i case about ds
[2007.02.16-20.18] Cratylus <intergossip> care
[2007.02.16-20.18] Cratylus <intergossip> i have to trust arren to let her do what you say
[2007.02.16-20.18] Cratylus <intergossip> this is the first time we ever talk about such a thing
[2007.02.16-20.18] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> We relied on Zakk for i3 for 12 years.
[2007.02.16-20.19] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> It worked out ok.
[2007.02.16-20.19] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Technically we relied on Rust. But he was imaginary.
[2007.02.16-20.19] Cratylus <intergossip> mouse, then go back to gjs
[2007.02.16-20.19] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Now who's being unhelpful.
[2007.02.16-20.19] Cratylus <intergossip> i think it's a valid point
[2007.02.16-20.19] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Cratylus, I have a professionally maintained server farm with hands and eyes. I have QoS and routing guarantees. I have nearly 20 years' unix experience and 15 years experience as a Linux administrator. I run a number of high profile networks and services for organisations of which you have heard and of which you may even be a member.
[2007.02.16-20.20] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> I can provide references, probably from people you know; if not, at least from people you have heard of and respect.
[2007.02.16-20.20] Cratylus <intergossip> i believe you. i look forward to working with you as a partner in a nified i3 network
[2007.02.16-20.20] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Here's the problem.
[2007.02.16-20.20] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> i3 isn't exactly high tech.
[2007.02.16-20.20] Cratylus <intergossip> if it doesnt work outm then i will carry on on my own as i have before
[2007.02.16-20.20] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> And I'd think anyone that spent more than a pittance of time making it so would be an idiot.
[2007.02.16-20.21] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Arren is offering to make a stable network code that is pretty easy to run with minimal effort
[2007.02.16-20.21] Cratylus <intergossip> is that what she said?
[2007.02.16-20.21] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> I'm not trying to touch the dead souls project. I think you do good work there. I think you do less good work with I3, and I think I3 should not be a fragmented network.
[2007.02.16-20.21] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> You'll ALWAYS have the ability to update your network page and switch back to yatmim if you want.
[2007.02.16-20.21] Cratylus <intergossip> ok hang on
[2007.02.16-20.22] Cratylus <intergossip> do you understand that i've worked essentially a part time job on ds for the past 2 years?
[2007.02.16-20.22] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> And no one will change that
[2007.02.16-20.22] Cratylus <intergossip> this is not a 5 minutes once a week thing
[2007.02.16-20.22] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> I do. Nobody wants to take that away from you. Least of all me, I couldn't do what you do.
[2007.02.16-20.22] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Arren is just offering to host the i3 network and remove that from your list of problems.
[2007.02.16-20.22] Cratylus <intergossip> my fucking blood, thin as it may be, is in it
[2007.02.16-20.22] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Dead Souls will stay as you
[2007.02.16-20.23] Cratylus <intergossip> and i hav eonly just started talking to arren about a partnership of *any* kind
[2007.02.16-20.23] Cratylus <intergossip> and any time i trusted someone else to do anything i counted on i have had my ass invaded
[2007.02.16-20.23] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Which speaks more to your insecurity than anything else.
[2007.02.16-20.24] Cratylus <intergossip> so you can understand, i hope, why i'm not handing over every last scintilla to arren in this first conversation
[2007.02.16-20.24] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> I honestly wonder if english is your primary language sometimes.
[2007.02.16-20.25] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> DS = Crat
[2007.02.16-20.25] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> I3 = Arren
[2007.02.16-20.25] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Everyone == Happy.
[2007.02.16-20.25] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Cratylus, I have offered you references and history. I am not asking for DS, nor to change what you're doing to it. I'm actually offering to help you with the DS project, but I'm also trying to give I3 a stable and unfragmented basis.
[2007.02.16-20.26] Cratylus <intergossip> ok
[2007.02.16-20.26] Cratylus <intergossip> i'm with you on that, which is why i keep harping on thtis inter router thing
[2007.02.16-20.26] Cratylus <intergossip> i know nobody is grubbing at ds
[2007.02.16-20.26] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Here's my problem with "interrouter"
[2007.02.16-20.26] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Mouse, I can do inter-router. Relax.
[2007.02.16-20.26] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> I'm not gonna update my i3 daemon because well, i3 isn't that important.
[2007.02.16-20.27] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> But I can't do it immediately. I work 14 hour days. I'm 3 days off inter-router.
[2007.02.16-20.27] Cratylus <intergossip> i dont think there's a big hurry, is there?
[2007.02.16-20.27] Cratylus <intergossip> we'll get there
[2007.02.16-20.27] Cratylus <intergossip> we dont have to walk from this conversation with everything fixed
[2007.02.16-20.30] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Cratylus, what would assure you that I could run I3 in such a way as to satisfy you?
[2007.02.16-20.30] Cratylus <intergossip> mmmmm
[2007.02.16-20.30] Cratylus <intergossip> well
[2007.02.16-20.30] Cratylus <intergossip> i know you're well capable of it
[2007.02.16-20.30] Cratylus <intergossip> that's not in question
[2007.02.16-20.30] Cratylus <intergossip> i've just never relied on you for anything
[2007.02.16-20.30] Cratylus <intergossip> and that is hard to get over
[2007.02.16-20.31] Cratylus <intergossip> which is why
[2007.02.16-20.31] Cratylus <intergossip> i figure
[2007.02.16-20.31] Cratylus <intergossip> if you run ig and and are invested in it
[2007.02.16-20.31] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Until you do, you never will have. But many others have, and this is why I provide references. I'm flattered that you don't question my ability, even before really interacting with any of my work.
[2007.02.16-20.32] Cratylus <intergossip> no fense, but it isn't rocket science, and you seem quite capable code wise, so it just makes sense
[2007.02.16-20.32] Cratylus <intergossip> what i'm not understanding is
[2007.02.16-20.32] Cratylus <intergossip> what is so objectionable about having intergossip move to asdf
[2007.02.16-20.32] Cratylus <intergossip> while ds muds stay on yatmim
[2007.02.16-20.33] Cratylus <intergossip> not trying to be argumentative
[2007.02.16-20.33] Cratylus <intergossip> just not quite gettin git
[2007.02.16-20.33] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> because then, in effect, there becomes 2 i3 networks
[2007.02.16-20.33] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> and splitting the crowd is bad
[2007.02.16-20.33] Cratylus <intergossip> until the Grand Unification
[2007.02.16-20.33] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> which will never happen
[2007.02.16-20.34] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Trust Uncle Duukie
[2007.02.16-20.34] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> It fragments the network. It means that neither router is likely to maintain critical mass for a community, and the way I3 has been hemorrhaging MUDs recently, that's a serious problem.
[2007.02.16-20.34] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> it'll always get pushed off one more month
[2007.02.16-20.34] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> I have two objectives: First, build a community. Second, keep that community happy. Nonfragmentation is required.
[2007.02.16-20.35] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> I've done this before, it's what I do for a job. It's what I do for a hobby.
[2007.02.16-20.38] Cratylus <intergossip> i'm only human. i need time to digest new ideas that involve changing the way i look at things.
[2007.02.16-20.39] Cratylus <intergossip> i will think about what you've said
[2007.02.16-20.39] Cratylus <intergossip> by the same token
[2007.02.16-20.39] Cratylus <intergossip> i believe my proposition is a reasonable one
[2007.02.16-20.39] Cratylus <intergossip> and i hope you do the same
[2007.02.16-20.40] Reflection@My Nuts In Your Mouth! <imud_gossip> Test
[2007.02.16-20.40] Cratylus <intergossip> howdy
[2007.02.16-20.41] Reflection@My Nuts In Your Mouth! <imud_gossip> wich router am I connected to correctly? =)
[2007.02.16-20.41] Cratylus <intergossip> arren
[2007.02.16-20.41] Reflection@My Nuts In Your Mouth! <imud_gossip> ok =) well, works. very nice
[2007.02.16-20.41] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> I have argued against your proposal. I build communities. I do not break them. I will not break this one.
[2007.02.16-20.42] Reflection@My Nuts In Your Mouth! <imud_gossip> for some reason I couldn't get the sorrows to send it's startup request correctly, tho it worked fine with gjs
[2007.02.16-20.44] Reflection@My Nuts In Your Mouth! <imud_gossip> so whats the argument, to attempt to keep both routers in play instead of individual groups moving to one or the other?
[2007.02.16-20.44] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> I'm trying to help you not to break it either, and to convince you that other than the personal hurdle, you have nothing to lose by passing I3 to adsr.
[2007.02.16-20.45] Reflection@My Nuts In Your Mouth! <imud_gossip> ahhh. nm. makes sense now
[2007.02.16-20.45] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> You tell me what you want for DS muds, I will provide it.
[2007.02.16-20.46] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> All that remains is the personal hurdle, and still you lose nothing. DS is a good project.
[2007.02.16-20.46] Reflection@My Nuts In Your Mouth! <imud_gossip> back shortly, forgot I named thism ud so horribly for fun awhile ago
[2007.02.16-20.46] Cratylus <intergossip> listen
[2007.02.16-20.47] Cratylus <intergossip> my promise to you was adding this router to the intermud page i run. we went from that to me making everyone move to your new router
[2007.02.16-20.47] Cratylus <intergossip> let's let it cool for a bit while i think about it
[2007.02.16-20.48] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Please don't leave it too long, otherwise the time will break the community anyway.
[2007.02.16-20.48] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> The current situation is the one I'm trying to avoid.
[2007.02.16-20.49] Cratylus <intergossip> it's held for half a year. waht's the rush?
[2007.02.16-20.49] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> The current situation is two independent routers.
[2007.02.16-20.49] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> To be frank...
[2007.02.16-20.49] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> the rush is that you've become quite an issue of late
[2007.02.16-20.49] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> You're ok when you're sober.
[2007.02.16-20.50] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> but when you're drunk you tend to cause many muds to consider permanently leaving the network.
[2007.02.16-20.50] Cratylus <intergossip> mouse i think you should speak for yourself
[2007.02.16-20.51] Cratylus <intergossip> if anything your argument favors multiple networks
[2007.02.16-20.51] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> I think you should understand that we like you.
[2007.02.16-20.51] Cratylus <intergossip> let the chicps fall where they may
[2007.02.16-20.51] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> But we hate the fact that you become "OMG ITS MINE" when you drink.
[2007.02.16-20.52] Cratylus <intergossip> have you noticed that it's when people pick on me that i become combtive
[2007.02.16-20.52] Cratylus <intergossip> or when people break rules that i enforce them?
[2007.02.16-20.52] Cratylus <intergossip> maybe it's you that needs to work things out
[2007.02.16-20.54] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> This is off the point. The point is to establish a sane and consensual basis for I3 which does not fragment the network.
[2007.02.16-20.54] Cratylus <intergossip> i though mouse was just being helpful
[2007.02.16-20.54] Cratylus <intergossip> arren i agree with you
[2007.02.16-20.54] Cratylus <intergossip> that's something we've agreed on from the start
[2007.02.16-20.55] Cratylus <intergossip> you appear to want an immedate answer to a request to change the way i look at things right this minute
[2007.02.16-20.55] Cratylus <intergossip> i'm sorry but i am not yet godhead
[2007.02.16-20.55] Cratylus <intergossip> i'm going to need to think about it
[2007.02.16-20.56] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Well then
[2007.02.16-20.56] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Remember that nothing is being taken from you. This is just an experienced network administrator offering to administrate a network service.
[2007.02.16-20.56] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Please list Arren's router as an alternate on your precious website.
[2007.02.16-20.56] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> While you think.
[2007.02.16-20.56] Cratylus <intergossip> that was my question actually
[2007.02.16-20.56] Cratylus <intergossip> when this thing started it wasnt all that clear i should do that
[2007.02.16-20.57] Cratylus <intergossip> and so i asked the question as to whether i should list it
[2007.02.16-20.57] Cratylus <intergossip> should i do so?
[2007.02.16-20.57] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> I would, yes.
[2007.02.16-20.57] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Until this all gets sorted out.
[2007.02.16-20.57] Cratylus <intergossip> yeah i caught that
[2007.02.16-20.58] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> What is your plan for the future? To persist in splitting the network? To delay making a decision on the issue? To resign to a situation de-facto?
[2007.02.16-20.59] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Obviously i3 is going to split into 2 factions.
[2007.02.16-21.00] Reflection@Mirror Ring <imud_gossip> it's not the first time
[2007.02.16-21.00] Cratylus <intergossip> i'm happy either way, though unification is my preference. i've said it before. i dunno how many times i must repeat it to arren's satisfaction
[2007.02.16-21.00] Cratylus <intergossip> i'm starting to feel like i'm not being listened to
[2007.02.16-21.00] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Well, I would love for a single router to come under the banner, diplomacy and publicity of the DS project.
[2007.02.16-21.00] Tatianna@Anarres II <imud_gossip> thats cause you or sort of contradicting yourself
[2007.02.16-21.01] Tatianna@Anarres II <imud_gossip> are*
[2007.02.16-21.01] Cratylus <intergossip> i like vanilla and ilike pistachio, but i prefer pistachio
[2007.02.16-21.01] Cratylus <intergossip> either way, ice cream
[2007.02.16-21.01] Cratylus <intergossip> perhaps those are terms you can understand, tats
[2007.02.16-21.01] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> There are more ice cream consumers than there are MUDs, therefore the manufacturers can afford to make two flavours.
[2007.02.16-21.01] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> We do not have that luxury.
[2007.02.16-21.01] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> We are down to 21 active MUDs from 90, and we have lost entire sub-communities.
[2007.02.16-21.02] Reflection@Mirror Ring <imud_gossip> I'll be happy with coffeepot back online and in reach, it's the best channel on any router!
[2007.02.16-21.02] Cratylus <intergossip> do you think that saying the same things over and over will make me answer you to your satisfaction?
[2007.02.16-21.03] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> CP is down because of Earth, but I can put Amethyst on bofh, Amethyst is much more powerful than CP.
[2007.02.16-21.03] Cratylus <intergossip> i dunno what cp is
[2007.02.16-21.03] Cratylus <intergossip> a channel i suppose
[2007.02.16-21.03] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> An AI.
[2007.02.16-21.03] Reflection@Mirror Ring <imud_gossip> on a serious note, there are many muds that do not even know about the new router/routers, wouldn't a campaigne for awareness be a good start... once you've decided on whose running what I mean
[2007.02.16-21.03] <imud_gossip> Arren@Anarres II nods.
[2007.02.16-21.04] Cratylus <intergossip> i think this raises a fair point
[2007.02.16-21.04] Cratylus <intergossip> which is the same problem i3 had before i showed
[2007.02.16-21.04] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> I've reached out to some of the admins of those muds and communities recently, since I remained in contact with many of them. I will do so again when this gets resolved.
[2007.02.16-21.04] Cratylus <intergossip> "single point of failure"
[2007.02.16-21.04] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Arren, I'd suggest you reinvite them to adsr
[2007.02.16-21.04] Cratylus <intergossip> and this is why you're not getting any kind of commitment from me
[2007.02.16-21.05] Cratylus <intergossip> the last time i was ok with an spf beyond my direct control, it died
[2007.02.16-21.05] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Cratylus, the Anarres network has 24x7 monitoring, support and hands-and-eyes.
[2007.02.16-21.05] Tatianna@Anarres II <imud_gossip> yeah, but they never did anything to prevent that, arren wouldnt let it just die out
[2007.02.16-21.05] Cratylus <intergossip> ok, you say so, and it's probably true
[2007.02.16-21.06] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> We have a pager network with an ops team of two always on call.
[2007.02.16-21.06] Cratylus <intergossip> but it's still a problem
[2007.02.16-21.06] Cratylus <intergossip> heh
[2007.02.16-21.06] Cratylus <intergossip> that's not the point
[2007.02.16-21.06] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> It rather is the point, this is nearly telecomms grade.
[2007.02.16-21.06] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> These are professional engineers, not casual coders.
[2007.02.16-21.06] Reflection@Mirror Ring <imud_gossip> perhaps Arren could name 1-2 benefactors, for whom should anything happen to his person, would have access to said router source? wich nothing short of death will cause him to cease his maintenance, I know Arren well enough. He's solidly deddicated to tasks to the point, he goes down with a simnking ship' it's what we love about him
[2007.02.16-21.06] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Crat, your objection seems to be network stability.
[2007.02.16-21.06] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Arren offers that in spades.
[2007.02.16-21.07] Cratylus <intergossip> i dont think it is. what you are talking about is "fuck the inter router network, i want a single router"
[2007.02.16-21.07] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> When I go on holiday, there is an entire ops team to manage the systems, and whom you can contact for maintenance and administration.
[2007.02.16-21.07] Cratylus <intergossip> i think this is a paradigm which has proven to be a failure
[2007.02.16-21.07] Tatianna@Anarres II <imud_gossip> i think crats objection is, i wont be god anymore
[2007.02.16-21.07] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Right now we don't have an inter-router network. When we have, you will be the first invitee, Cratylus. I will also offer to code it.
[2007.02.16-21.07] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Crat... so 1 router is ok if you run it. But 1 router is a failure of design in Arren runs it?
[2007.02.16-21.07] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Do you want it to be your failure, or the failure of a professional team of telecomms engineers?
[2007.02.16-21.07] Cratylus <intergossip> why dont we just code it now?
[2007.02.16-21.08] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Because I started at 10am today, it's now 3am, and it's been a long time since I've had a day off.
[2007.02.16-21.08] Cratylus <intergossip> ok we can start tomorrow
[2007.02.16-21.08] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Tomorrow was going to be my day off.
[2007.02.16-21.08] Cratylus <intergossip> then the day after
[2007.02.16-21.09] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Have you ever written a fault tolerant network system?
[2007.02.16-21.09] Reflection@Mirror Ring <imud_gossip> Arren is the most stable and reliable force on i3 this day. I'd hate to see i3 split, but I will take sides if it has to be so. =(
[2007.02.16-21.09] Cratylus <intergossip> it's been half a year since gjs died. nobody is going to cease living
[2007.02.16-21.09] Cratylus <intergossip> well if people go to arrens router, then fine
[2007.02.16-21.09] Cratylus <intergossip> i'll put a mud of my own on there as well
[2007.02.16-21.09] Cratylus <intergossip> that's not the point
[2007.02.16-21.10] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Let me write the inter-router code. I have experience of design and implementation of truly fault tolerant systems.
[2007.02.16-21.10] Cratylus <intergossip> making the ds people move there is not something i'm going to undertake lightly
[2007.02.16-21.10] Tatianna@Anarres II <imud_gossip> haha, that sounded like my six, even my two year old "then fine!"
[2007.02.16-21.10] Cratylus <intergossip> afaict this is now a game of make cratylus do it right this minute
[2007.02.16-21.10] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Crat, we're trying hard to include you and the DS people
[2007.02.16-21.10] Cratylus <intergossip> and i'm not seeing the reason for it
[2007.02.16-21.11] Cratylus <intergossip> so it's just making me more skeptical
[2007.02.16-21.11] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> No, this is a game of "Make Crat admit he's just going to tell all of us to fuck off anyway"
[2007.02.16-21.11] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> The reason is that your delaying, combined with the publicity of the DS project, is what will cause a fragmentation of the network.
[2007.02.16-21.11] Cratylus <intergossip> tonight?
[2007.02.16-21.11] Reflection@Mirror Ring <imud_gossip> Ok, so the favoritism of 'your' mudlib, over all others, over an entire community wins out. I thought all this time i3 was a 'mud community' not a nazi gathering of specific share holders on an individualist plan of mudworld domination ='(
[2007.02.16-21.11] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Crat, but not accepting the idea here, we all know what is about to happen
[2007.02.16-21.11] Reflection@Mirror Ring <imud_gossip> afk smoke =(
[2007.02.16-21.11] Cratylus <intergossip> well no actually
[2007.02.16-21.11] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Arren's router will become the new community, but you'll keep your DS people on yatmim
[2007.02.16-21.12] Cratylus <intergossip> tell me what's going to happen
[2007.02.16-21.12] Cratylus <intergossip> ok
[2007.02.16-21.12] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> And you'll never migrate them.
[2007.02.16-21.12] Cratylus <intergossip> and when theres an intermud route rnetwork everybody will be on it
[2007.02.16-21.12] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> And that's not good for the overall community either since it brings in no new blood
[2007.02.16-21.12] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Mouse: Then the publicity hits yatmim, since that's the router under the DS banner, and the network fragments.
[2007.02.16-21.12] Cratylus <intergossip> and it will be transpartent
[2007.02.16-21.12] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Crat... that's pointless though.
[2007.02.16-21.12] Cratylus <intergossip> i'm missing something here
[2007.02.16-21.12] Cratylus <intergossip> i'm not getting something
[2007.02.16-21.12] Cratylus <intergossip> someone please explain it
[2007.02.16-21.13] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Mouse was devil's advocate for a minute, and perhaps you missed it.
[2007.02.16-21.13] Cratylus <intergossip> cuz yall are hollering for no urgent reason
[2007.02.16-21.13] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> inter-router support is a whole lot of code work for a very minor result
[2007.02.16-21.13] Cratylus <intergossip> i disagree
[2007.02.16-21.13] Cratylus <intergossip> it is the core of the future
[2007.02.16-21.13] Tatianna@Anarres II <imud_gossip> mouse, its no use, he cant let go of his control over it, thats why hes insisting on interrouter, so he still can play god
[2007.02.16-21.13] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> when a VASTLY easier solution is, "let the network admin run the network"
[2007.02.16-21.13] Cratylus <intergossip> a decentralized inter router network fixes everything
[2007.02.16-21.13] Cratylus <intergossip> that is what im arguing for
[2007.02.16-21.14] Tatianna@Anarres II <imud_gossip> for a lot more effort
[2007.02.16-21.14] Tatianna@Anarres II <imud_gossip> effort that can be avoided
[2007.02.16-21.14] Cratylus <intergossip> like you'd lose a drop of sweat, tats
[2007.02.16-21.14] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> We haven't got one right now. We aren't going to have one right now. Choose your next best solution please.
[2007.02.16-21.14] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Ok, let me put this another way...
[2007.02.16-21.14] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Can you code an inter router network?
[2007.02.16-21.14] Cratylus <intergossip> yes
[2007.02.16-21.14] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Because I can't.
[2007.02.16-21.14] Cratylus <intergossip> i can
[2007.02.16-21.14] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Then why haven't you?
[2007.02.16-21.14] Cratylus <intergossip> i'd rather have arren help
[2007.02.16-21.14] Tatianna@Anarres II <imud_gossip> no, i wouldnt, but im also friends with arren and why would i want her to spend hours upon hours o coding something that wasnt needed
[2007.02.16-21.15] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Cratylus, I can code IRN solo in under a day, AND have all kinds of fault tolerance built in that you've never even heard of.
[2007.02.16-21.15] Cratylus <intergossip> great
[2007.02.16-21.15] Cratylus <intergossip> let's do it
[2007.02.16-21.15] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> But I'm not going to do it today.
[2007.02.16-21.15] Cratylus <intergossip> fine
[2007.02.16-21.15] Cratylus <intergossip> it can way a few moons
[2007.02.16-21.15] Cratylus <intergossip> wait
[2007.02.16-21.15] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> But I will commit to give you full access to the codebase so when it does come out, you can run it.
[2007.02.16-21.15] Cratylus <intergossip> i'm not grokking the need for an immediate fix before bedtime
[2007.02.16-21.16] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> In the meantime, please, don't fragment the network.
[2007.02.16-21.16] Cratylus <intergossip> ok
[2007.02.16-21.16] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Please, make a decision.
[2007.02.16-21.16] Cratylus <intergossip> fine, "no"
[2007.02.16-21.16] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Ok. Then get lost.
[2007.02.16-21.16] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Not for action right this minute, but a decision.
[2007.02.16-21.16] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Sorry to put it that way.
[2007.02.16-21.16] Cratylus <intergossip> the decision is, lets do an IRN, and the problem disappears
[2007.02.16-21.16] Cratylus <intergossip> it'll be done by march
[2007.02.16-21.17] Cratylus <intergossip> and then everyone is happy
[2007.02.16-21.17] Cratylus <intergossip> and the question of a primary router is moot
[2007.02.16-21.17] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> ...assuming Arren gets a whole day to work on i3 this month.
[2007.02.16-21.17] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Cratylus, I've spent nearly 3 hours discussing this with you for the basic reason of trying to do you a favour.
[2007.02.16-21.17] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> You get shit off I3. I'm trying to remove that shit and let everyone forget it while actually providing a better service than you do.
[2007.02.16-21.17] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> That's it.
[2007.02.16-21.17] Cratylus <intergossip> and i thank you for it
[2007.02.16-21.18] Cratylus <intergossip> and it's gonna be great
[2007.02.16-21.18] Cratylus <intergossip> i think this is the start of a beautiful partnership
[2007.02.16-21.18] Cratylus <intergossip> if you could only learn to cool your fucking jets
[2007.02.16-21.18] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> It is no kind of partnership while you us phrases like "no"
[2007.02.16-21.18] Cratylus <intergossip> you'll forgive me for giving you the answer you dont want while you put the screws on
[2007.02.16-21.18] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Arren, let it go.
[2007.02.16-21.19] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Crat's going to keep the DS people on yatmim.
[2007.02.16-21.19] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> End of story.
[2007.02.16-21.19] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Let's work on getting the non-Crat people onto this router.
[2007.02.16-21.19] Cratylus <intergossip> mouse i think you missed the point
[2007.02.16-21.19] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Do you think we can hold the community?
[2007.02.16-21.19] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Tits, wake Corvie up.
[2007.02.16-21.19] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> I do, Arren.
[2007.02.16-21.19] Tatianna@Anarres II <imud_gossip> hes not here hun
[2007.02.16-21.19] Tatianna@Anarres II <imud_gossip> prolly sleeping, he had dinner with the gf tonight
[2007.02.16-21.20] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> I can run the network, because it's me plus ops. I can't get ops to do team management or anything, so I have to rely on you gyus.
[2007.02.16-21.20] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> I think the core people will come. I think that Coffee has an intermud daemon built in that hasn't been updated since gjs
[2007.02.16-21.20] Cratylus <intergossip> they connect to yatmim now
[2007.02.16-21.20] Cratylus <intergossip> but you might be able to get zac to change it
[2007.02.16-21.20] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> There are a few other communities I wont' mention immediately, but that we can work with, which might restore a few more groups.
[2007.02.16-21.21] Cratylus <intergossip> heh
[2007.02.16-21.21] Reflection@Mirror Ring <imud_gossip> Arren, do you have plans of releaseing a form of your mudlib to the public? That would possibly also help usher in new people as well, I can do some free campaigning here and there, get a little more backing and some fresh blood possibly =)
[2007.02.16-21.21] Cratylus <intergossip> so much for non-fragmentation being your goal
[2007.02.16-21.21] Cratylus <intergossip> anyway, back to my question
[2007.02.16-21.21] Cratylus <intergossip> do i list asdf?
[2007.02.16-21.21] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> Crat, you're not getting it.
[2007.02.16-21.21] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> I didn't play hard-ball. You did.
[2007.02.16-21.21] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> We wanted to include you.
[2007.02.16-21.21] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> You decided that was never going to happen until inter router.
[2007.02.16-21.21] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Yes, please list it.
[2007.02.16-21.21] Mouse@Broken Empire <imud_gossip> So you're the one seperated the community.
[2007.02.16-21.21] Cratylus <intergossip> whatever guys, you're right, it had to be decided right this second
[2007.02.16-21.22] Cratylus <intergossip> do i list asdf?
[2007.02.16-21.22] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Yes, please list adsr.
[2007.02.16-21.22] Cratylus <intergossip> k
[2007.02.16-21.22] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> A decision now does not imply action now.
[2007.02.16-21.22] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Remember Kyoto.
[2007.02.16-21.23] Duuk@Haven <imud_gossip> Better
[2007.02.16-21.26] Cratylus <intergossip> there you go http://lpmuds.net/intermud.html
[2007.02.16-21.26] Cratylus <intergossip> http://lpmuds.net/forum/ is a good place to announce
[2007.02.16-21.27] Cratylus <intergossip> but there are many others, including http://lpmuds.net/links.html
[2007.02.16-21.27] <imud_gossip> Arren@Anarres II looks confused. Now there are three routers.
[2007.02.16-21.27] Cratylus <intergossip> well yes
[2007.02.16-21.27] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> Cratylus, it sounds very much as if you want to compete, rather than cooperate.
[2007.02.16-21.27] Cratylus <intergossip> that is what i promised to do
[2007.02.16-21.27] Cratylus <intergossip> i'd list you on the intermud page
[2007.02.16-21.28] Cratylus <intergossip> i dunno if i can clarify my position any better by comtinuing to repeat it
[2007.02.16-21.28] Cratylus <intergossip> i'll leave it to your chan history
[2007.02.16-21.29] Duuk@Haven <imud_gossip> You know I've been picturing you sitting at your desk saying, "My precious..." for like 2 hours now, right?
[2007.02.16-21.29] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> We understand your position, we disagree with it, we're attempting to persuade you otherwise. You have rejected every offer which carries consensus or reduces your absolute authority.
[2007.02.16-21.29] Tatianna@Anarres II <imud_gossip> i can clarify it for you
[2007.02.16-21.29] Cratylus <intergossip> no i haven't
[2007.02.16-21.29] Cratylus <intergossip> i have simply asked for time to think about it
[2007.02.16-21.29] Duuk@Haven <imud_gossip> Yes. You have.
[2007.02.16-21.29] Cratylus <intergossip> which i think is reasonable and proper
[2007.02.16-21.29] Cratylus <intergossip> and when forced, my answer is "no"
[2007.02.16-21.30] Cratylus <intergossip> which again
[2007.02.16-21.30] Cratylus <intergossip> i think is entirely reasonable
[2007.02.16-21.30] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> I think thinking time is quite reasonable, bearing in mind that the network is now fragmented, and the decision from Cratylus is the only thing that will bring it back together.
[2007.02.16-21.30] Cratylus <intergossip> since you're insisting on immediate change of my view
[2007.02.16-21.30] Arren@Anarres II <imud_gossip> So please do think about it.
[2007.02.16-21.30] Cratylus <intergossip> k